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Should The Debate Section Be Closed?

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Gildarts
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Should The Debate Section Be Closed? Empty Should The Debate Section Be Closed?

Post by JIGL0JAY 14/7/2014, 4:18 am

Premise: The SM debate section should be closed due to the inactivity of the section.

Overview: The Smokin Mils debate section is a place that never received much of a good reputation. Before I was on the forums, it was basically where people posted random opinions about topics and it was flooded with stuff you would see in the Smokin Lounge. When I arrived, my attitude was extremely negative towards those who did not post in a way that I wanted a debate section to go, but I posted incessantly in this section. I must have logged at least 1000 posts in this section (perhaps an exaggeration, perhaps not). I know better than anyone that this section is basically devoid of content.

The number of active forum members who have either never posted in the debate section or posted less than 3-4 times is probably over 90%. This is my first point: That people who are active on these forums do not need a section to debate if the posts are so sparse and activity by all members is low.

My second point is that this section has been "revived" a few times. It was only 2 months ago that I was thanking Frekwency for bringing back the debate section. I didn't post in the Communism/Capitalism thread and suddenly there's a 2 week gap between threads. There is simply not enough activity to sustain a section that constitutes debates. 

Thirdly, other sections have been closed with similar activity. The dutch section was closed because of a lack of dutch people and a lack of activity.

Resolution: The debate section should be merged into the lounge. As much as people would like to distinguish the two sections, there is no point to keeping a debate section up with so little activity. Broeder is correct in his post where he states:
Broeder wrote:Either people will feel the need to discuss and not need the achievement, or they will want the achievement and dont feel strongly enough about this subforum to use it without the achievement.

Badges are not a resurrection to the section. Badges are ego stroking. When you introduce a reward for people posting here, you invite them to not care as much in return for a reward. In a way, you could convince Ms Santa to continue to post time and time again in here (look at her debate section posts: she provides absolutely nothing to this section, ever) and get her a badge for it. But her lack of content means that the section is not contributing anything of value.

I know that my position on these forums does not hold weight. The only thing that I have on my side is seniority, experience in this section, and the knowledge that comes from having "View Your Posts" as one of my startup tabs and watching it pretty much every day.

Points that need to be disputed:

  • How many active threads are made per month in this section in relation to other sections?
  • How many unique users are in the debate section as opposed to others?
  • What is the core difference between the closure of the dutch forum and the constant "revival" of the debate section?
  • Can you prove my existence within a geopolitical state?


Also: Inb4 Broeder posts because he basically posts in 100% of my threads.
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Post by Kelly 14/7/2014, 5:01 am

JIGL0JAY wrote:
My second point is that this section has been "revived" a few times. It was only 2 months ago that I was thanking Frekwency for bringing back the debate section. I didn't post in the Communism/Capitalism thread and suddenly there's a 2 week gap between threads. There is simply not enough activity to sustain a section that constitutes debates. 

I'd like to simply say here that Frekwency gave the Intelligent Debate section to Kid (and soon after Kid and I worked on... To present date) because he was too busy with real life. That is the reason for the "2 week gap between threads"

Therefore with that point, the revival of the Intelligent Debate section has been continued since this thread here (clicky). Hmm.. Any gaps? No. And if anything, there's been a bigger increase in activity because of the weekly debate topic here (clicky), for which we have more planned to come (weekly).

I can understand (and respect) your opinions, but I feel you haven't even given the section an opportunity to be revived before debating whether it should be closed entirely. It appeared to me you didn't give a crap one way or another until it started to be active, again, as before it's more recent increase in activity it had been dead, had it not?

Give it a chance before you try to knock it. Just my $0.02. I respect your opinion, but we're doing our best to make a change and revive it... Instead of fighting it, you could simply post more actively here. This, after all, was the section you enjoyed highly.

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Post by Gildarts 14/7/2014, 5:03 am

-_- Ok.

Well, I do praise you for taking the time to post this. 
And I do understand that this section has been running dry for quiet a while now and also understand that it may do so for a little longer.
However making such statements without knowing exactly how We (Me, Kelly and Piramatrix) are planning to actually bring activity into this section means you are lacking information and relying on past experience, suggesting that information you are providing on why it should be closed invalid for the time being, thus your supposed solution to this will be rendered useless until our full goals have been complete. 

About the badges, they are only given to people that meet the criteria, as you say this may bring more people posting just for the badges yes you are correct there, but what you haven't considered is how we judge it exactly and how long it takes us to choose people that meet what we have in mind which is an extensive dedication to the section in various different topics. This is also another aspect you lack information in as we can also not reward them every month if we feel as if no one has deserved it. 

Lastly comparing this section to the old Duch section is you "reviving" history, there is absolutely no point in bringing it up for a comparison. The "Core" difference is that a Duch section was made for a niche market whereas with this section anyone can participate.

Happy?
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Post by Muffins 14/7/2014, 5:42 am

I'd just like to point out that Cliff has been trying to 'revive' this section for years. Maybe he isn't anymore, but he brought guides such as - Debating Reference Guide and some others to this section. Also, if I remember correctly it was him that tried to make a debating team or club (might have been someone else).
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Post by Kelly 14/7/2014, 6:13 am

A mini-discussion began between a few Ranks in IRC and ultimately led to a good possible solution, something that would be a middle-ground between what is being suggested in this thread, the current revival of this section.

I'll try to see if I can get a hold of Adrijana tomorrow and talk to her in depth about it, though I do feel very strongly that we (Pira, Kid, and I) should be given the opportunity to at least let things pan out as they were before doing anything, so give us the chance to continue doing what we've had in mind, as we'll never know if it works without first trying. How about in a month's time we reconvene and decide from there what to do. Kid and I both feel strongly that it would be fair, seeing as we've really seen progress and good results in the section thus far in our attempts to bring new activity to the section.

Jig, I know you've tried for awhile to keep this section going and it didn't work out. However, we're trying again, and I feel we're not really doing such a bad job at it. Things are less intense (meaning less 100% proof on every single reply), and it's making it more of debate discussions. I understand very well your history with this section.

Time has passed since the section was attempted to be revived (not counting Frekwency, that was sort out of everyone's hands, he got busy IRL and handed it over to someone else to do), and so far it doesn't seem like we're doing a bad job. We only officially began leading this project on the 9th of July. Quite a bit of progress for less than one week.


TL;DR – Think I found middle-ground between your suggestion and what we're doing with the Debate section. I'll talk to Adrijana about it in depth tomorrow. However, I will also be suggesting that we (Kid, Pira, me) be given the opportunity to attempt to continue as we're doing now, seeing as we have been making headway with it. Pending Adrijana's approval and thoughts on the suggestion, Kid and I recommend/suggest that we be given one month to continue the section as we have been now, then reconvene and make a more solid, sound decision.


And on that note... I'm going to go to sleep, now. Night!
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Post by JIGL0JAY 14/7/2014, 7:11 am

Kelly wrote:
I'd like to simply say here that Frekwency gave the Intelligent Debate section to Kid (and soon after Kid and I worked on... To present date) because he was too busy with real life. That is the reason for the "2 week gap between threads"

And that's all well and good, but when someone goes from active to inactive, that's another person just having too much other stuff going on to keep this section active.

Therefore with that point, the revival of the Intelligent Debate section has been continued since this thread here (clicky). Hmm.. Any gaps? No. And if anything, there's been a bigger increase in activity because of the weekly debate topic here (clicky), for which we have more planned to come (weekly).

What does this prove to me, exactly? That one thread that got promoted reached over 20 posts? The other post isn't even a debate and every post that's over 20 posts in the thread is something I personally contributed to. Correlation is not causation, however, so I will concede that I do not have a point either.

I can understand (and respect) your opinions, but I feel you haven't even given the section an opportunity to be revived before debating whether it should be closed entirely. It appeared to me you didn't give a crap one way or another until it started to be active, again, as before it's more recent increase in activity it had been dead, had it not?

Actually I did give a crap, as you can see here, here, here, and here. That is not only disrespectful but downright ignorant that you would suggest without even consulting my post history I have not cared until you started posting in this wasteland. Those 4 posts range all the way back to August 22, 2013. That's nearly a year ago. My personal testimony is that I lurk this section every day. Why do I not post? Because I do not have an opinion on Cryptocurrencies that did not involve googling it, Capitalism vs Communism is debating Chicken vs The Egg, I don't care about Runescape, Android/iPhone is personal opinion, and that leaves 3 topics to debate in that I did not. I also find it quite odd you say I didn't give it a chance when I made a thread basically lauding Frekwency for it. I turned my head when the lapse came. You cannot blame me for rejecting the section's sudden upward trend as nothing but a trendy thing to do until it becomes boring.

Kid wrote:And I do understand that this section has been running dry for quiet a while now and also understand that it may do so for a little longer.

How much longer? Why is it that the section is able to run dry without someone suggesting that it be closed for inactivity? If a section is devoid of content and content providers, it is unable to provide a worthwhile end goal. It serves purely as a section where people will post random tidbits to get post count, as it always has been. People told me I couldn't be debate mod because I would use too much personal preference, and they aren't half wrong. But this place has always been a crap bin. I know that, you know that, we all know that. This whole forum is withering because nobody really needs this forum anymore due to dicing/merching being basically limited.

However making such statements without knowing exactly how We (Me, Kelly and Piramatrix) are planning to actually bring activity into this section means you are lacking information and relying on past experience, suggesting that information you are providing on why it should be closed invalid for the time being, thus your supposed solution to this will be rendered useless until our full goals have been complete. 

So what you're saying is that in order for me to have an opinion, I need to watch your plan unfold. Perhaps I'm jealous and jaded that when I advertised debate groups and heralded myself across the forums (I mean shit, have you looked at my post count? It's 5x yours) as the debate guy and got 0 response and now the section is dying and people want to come make it some big thing?

About the badges, they are only given to people that meet the criteria, as you say this may bring more people posting just for the badges yes you are correct there, but what you haven't considered is how we judge it exactly and how long it takes us to choose people that meet what we have in mind which is an extensive dedication to the section in various different topics. This is also another aspect you lack information in as we can also not reward them every month if we feel as if no one has deserved it. 

So what purpose do they serve? Do I get a badge? Do I lose my badge if I stop posting? What happens if no one really earns the badge except for you and Kelly and only a tiny handful of people? I'd love to hear your criteria on how to earn the badge.

Lastly comparing this section to the old Duch section is you "reviving" history, there is absolutely no point in bringing it up for a comparison. The "Core" difference is that a Duch section was made for a niche market whereas with this section anyone can participate.

That's bullshit handwaving the subject away and you know it. The Dutch section's removal is important because it describes a time where a section on the forum was removed due to the lack of content, lack of posts, and lack of need for it. The debate section is just as niche as anything else. My suggestion combines the lounge with the debate section rather than allow the debate section to continue in obscurity.

Muffins wrote:I'd just like to point out that Cliff has been trying to 'revive' this section for years. Maybe he isn't anymore, but he brought guides such as - Debating Reference Guide and some others to this section. Also, if I remember correctly it was him that tried to make a debating team or club (might have been someone else).

That was indeed my movement to do so. I attempted it with Yerer and was met with the response from Broeder, Idkeelu, MMA2000, and others that it was pointless because the section was never going to be active enough to warrant a group for it. I also laugh because my debating reference guide was removed as a sticky, despite it being the core true resource to the section. Everything currently at the top of this section is announcements.

Kelly wrote:I'll try to see if I can get a hold of Adrijana tomorrow and talk to her in depth about it, though I do feel very strongly that we (Pira, Kid, and I) should be given the opportunity to at least let things pan out as they were before doing anything, so give us the chance to continue doing what we've had in mind, as we'll never know if it works without first trying. How about in a month's time we reconvene and decide from there what to do. Kid and I both feel strongly that it would be fair, seeing as we've really seen progress and good results in the section thus far in our attempts to bring new activity to the section.

I feel that adequately suits me and I will continue to lurk and post for this month's time. However I will be keeping track of posts here, as pedantic and stupid that may be. As I stated in my original post, I hold no weight to this section apart from seniority and my experience. So don't let my bad attitude towards the subject hold you back.

Jig, I know you've tried for awhile to keep this section going and it didn't work out. However, we're trying again, and I feel we're not really doing such a bad job at it. Things are less intense (meaning less 100% proof on every single reply), and it's making it more of debate discussions. I understand very well your history with this section.

The problem is - where personal preference comes into play - the section requires debate, and debate requires proof. The best example of this to take from that one sentence is the thread about bullies that Frekwency made. If you follow that format and require all posts to at least structure an argument, I suppose I wouldn't have a problem with that. The problem is that I find it hard to have anything less than a Zero Tolerance policy for crap-posting as you can see from many of the threads laying dormant here. People don't want to give proof, they want to spout their opinion and maybe link a wikipedia article, that's the sad part.
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Post by Gildarts 14/7/2014, 7:34 am

Kelly posted an answer to it, which is agreeing with your point in moving the section, so i don't see a point in dragging this further.

But your failing to understand that we are making an attempt and the one time you have come online during us actually putting work here you say its inactive as an "Experienced" debater you know you lack in evidence and are only using past tense as you point here, how about you wait out a little next time before you start to make judgments?

On that note i wish to take no further action in this topic, thus a reply directed at me will be a pointless waste of time.
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Post by Broeder 14/7/2014, 11:11 am

Ctrl-f my name and only 5 hits, should have waited longer.

Anyway, didnt read all zeh posts but i disagree with shutting this thing down just yet. Give it more time and if it dies out then shut it down, but wait until natural 'death' had occured.

The prime time of this subforum was at the start when people could talk about religion and Communism and all that; those were strong topics that everybody felt they had something to contribute to. Not like the topics made nowadays like "You know what grinds my gears", which is just Lounge talk/a forum game.

I know Jigalow hates bad discussion posts, but you gotta take the bad with the good, since good discussionists (quality) will need fuel and bad discussionists (quantity) will provide that fuel. Also why I've always said that you should rename this subforum to include discussion instead of debate.

Edit: Also, is pointless waste of time a tautology?
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Post by [ADMIN] Adrijana 14/7/2014, 5:15 pm

JIGL0JAY,

I appreciate the input and I like the very heated debate going on over the whole section. I do think that this is a premature thought tho. Yes the section has had ups and down and it had those moments while you were active in it as well but we are at the point where a few Ranks have decided to give this a try and see what they can do. They have not only started to post topics but have a plan as to how to organize and prepare then before it even makes it to this section.

I love their ideas and I've liked the topics they have presented in here since they took the project over.

The section will stay and I do believe it will flourish after seeing what they have planned for it.
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Post by Justin 14/7/2014, 6:48 pm

I think it's a little selfish you are demanding the intelligent debate section be handled this way and that. I understand you like the very rigid and abrasive form of argument, but the threads nowadays are more enjoyable (for me personally) because you can post without getting "called out on your sources", etc. It may not be the intelligent debate that YOU want, but that doesn't mean it needs to be closed.

We have plenty of dead sections on this forum, and this doesn't even make the top 5. Leave it how it is, some ranks (Kid, Kelly, etc) have already put time into "revitalizing it".

Imo, if someone wants to post here they will, if they won't they won't. It's not a huge deal there's not constant posts, and it shouldn't be surprising given the general trend around here. (This forum is losing activity).

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Post by JIGL0JAY 14/7/2014, 10:38 pm

Justin wrote:But the threads nowadays are more enjoyable (for me personally) because you can post without getting "called out on your sources"I understand you like the very rigid and abrasive form of argument

See: Bully thread, where I engaged in less abrasive debate.

Justin wrote:It may not be the intelligent debate that YOU want, but that doesn't mean it needs to be closed.

Justin, I love you to death, but you're really proving sheer ignorance that you can't even take a second out of your day to read my post. I'm fine with a debate-discussion such as the Bullying one, or discussion of current events. But shitposting is shitposting, it doesn't matter if you're contributing by throwing your opinion in in one sentence. It's a shitpost.

Justin wrote:We have plenty of dead sections on this forum, and this doesn't even make the top 5.

I currently see 3 sections without posts since June: Market Discussion, Alliances, and Runescape Guides. Alliances could be merged with Announcements (but it won't), Guides is fine, Market Discussion is fine. The debate section does not hold any value to Runescape and is purely a section for the "Off Topic".

Justin wrote:It's not a huge deal there's not constant posts

There have been a few thread closures because of "gravedigging" in this section see here, which was a year ago. I basically posted once to tell people not to close threads here because people just don't post much.

Oh and yes, it is incredibly selfish. Because have you read my signature? I've always been the SM Debate Dictator. That will never change.

Drunk edit: Bring on the neg reps, I have had 30 neg reps on one post before.
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